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| SSJ2 Gohan: End of Z-Sword Training | ||
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 14 2013, 10:00 PM (5,237 Views) | ||
| Buuberries | May 17 2013, 12:34 PM Post #46 | |
No
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Gohan felt Goku's power@super saiyan 3, so Gohan could just be referring to that even though Gohan >>> any form of Goku with the exception of super saiyan 3. That doesn't mean that he didn't make any huge gains, but that any increase he did achieve was still inferior to Goku's maximum. That still satisfies your point that Gohan is still inferior to Goku. I'll anticipate your reply since you've said it previously to someone who said something similar: Goku can also turn into a super saiyan and super saiyan 2, so surely he would be pretty accurate at gauging Gohan's power when he transforms based on how much his own power multiplies when turning super/2. I also think the point you make about the Z-sword not granting any power other than Old Kai's magic is flawed.
They assumed the Z-Sword had the power to defeat Buu. They later found out the real power is from old Kai. I don't see at all how that invalidates the point that Gohan made huge gains just from training with the sword. The power that Gohan gained by training with the sword isn't synonymous with the power they thought the sword had; the power he gained was merely a byproduct of training with the sword in order to increase his control and proficiency. They thought the sword had the power to kill Buu, but it turns out that this had been a reference to old Kai all along. That doesn't mean that he didn't make any gains while training. And it doesn't matter if it's illogical because power increase is due to plot requirement, and the plot requirement is that Gohan makes much larger gains than anyone else in the series. Pick up something heavy, swing it around with precise control and not wildly, and tell me that your other muscles aren't sore from trying to stabalise you. |
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| Super Gohan | May 17 2013, 07:02 PM Post #47 | |
 
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The Super Saiyan forms act as multipliers contingent on their base state. The power they’ve achieved is reflected through their normal form. If the power of each state were independent of one another, then training in their base state would serve no ultimate purpose in becoming stronger. At that time, Gohan is inferior to Goku in every form he has.
When training Trunks and Goten for the fusion technique even after they transformed into Super Saiyan, Goku has to tell them to raise their ki as high as it goes in order to accurately gauge who was stronger. Gohan wasn’t making it a point to put out the full power of his normal state on display, so Goku wouldn’t know for certain how strong he would actually be unless he transformed.
The Elder Kaioshin contradicts them within that same page. Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4 Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.” Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!” Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”  I am not saying Gohan didn’t gain any power from it, but it’s not proven as significant given the surrounding circumstances. “Plot requirement” would not be relevant here since the plot does not necessitate him to even use his power once the training is over; he gets one of the biggest power-ups in the history of the series right after.
Gohan expresses the results of the training as being centralized towards the arms. |
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| Buuberries | May 17 2013, 11:09 PM Post #48 | |
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Seeing your point somewhat when you say, "“Plot requirement” would not be relevant here since the plot does not necessitate him to even use his power once the training is over; he gets one of the biggest power-ups in the history of the series right after." Do you mind reposting your argument against Goku questioning Gohan's power compared to Buu's, as in he's actually considering Gohan fighting Buu, as opposed to shunning the idea if Gohan were that much weaker than him? |
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| Super Gohan | May 18 2013, 02:37 AM Post #49 | |
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Aside from wishful thinking, the situation does not weigh in much thought on what Gohan’s power actually is. There is no acknowledgement of his power having grown extensively prior to the sword breaking; it’s a conclusion that is leapt towards all within one page and does not warrant heavy consideration, since it is dismissed as quickly as it was brought up by the Elder Kaioshin’s appearance. Goku’s comment only offers skepticism over the idea they’ve just promoted, it all occurs too fast for any acute analysis to be involved. |
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| + Ryebrid | May 18 2013, 04:54 AM Post #50 | |
 
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The expression on Goku's face is that of disbelief. How people can look past that and consider his statement as support for Gohan's level of strength, i don't know. Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…” -He can't help but be skeptical in what he is saying, because in reality he knows it's not true. No one truly believes what their saying in that situation because it's a rushed conclusion, as stated above. Taking that statement on it's own, and it's meaning can be skewed, which is what has happened here. Old Kai is the legend behind the sword. Therefore, the sword doesn't need to warrant any substantial increase in Gohan, it's just a very heavy sword which was chosen as the vessel for Old Kai. Thought heavy enough for no one to be able to lift out. Gohan's power increased, for sure, but it wasn't enough for anyone to note either. |
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| + Kyouks | May 18 2013, 05:51 AM Post #51 | |
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Although it's subjective, I completely disagree. http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dragon_Ball-buyao_daolian_ya/0.jp_Kanzenban/DRAGONBALLvol32/131-rInCa.jpg You can argue that he's skeptical here, but not in disbelief of any sort of large gains altogether imo. What he's skeptical about is what Kaioshin had just said about Gohan having obtained the greatest power in the world. Pay attention to the context in that scene. "He's got the greatest power." "But can he beat Boo?" His skepticism invalidates the notion that Gohan's become the strongest ever as the legend may have dictated in Kaioshin's eye; it does not, however, contradict the possibility of Gohan having increased by a large amount. Goku's words don't address that bit in Kaioshin's line. The others in here are arguing that, on top of that, Goku's seemingly genuine skepticism and arguable lack of "disbelief" places Gohan not just higher than SSJ2 Goku, but far higher, possibly somewhere within Fat Boo's scope (wherever you think that is). Not that I care much for not having Gohan near Fat Boo or wherever people like to place him, but this isn't true. Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…!” The greatest power in the world bit is clearly BS as soon as Old Kai shows up, but whether he even comes close to Goku barring SSJ3 at this point, the gains were indeed "substantial" nonetheless, as that claim is never contradicted.
I don't disagree with the idea of the Super Saiyan forms being dependent on the base state, though I fail to see how that means Gohan is inferior in every state. All you've managed to prove is that Gohan's training in his normal state led to an increase in strength in his other forms. If Gohan claiming inferiority to Goku can be interpreted as Gohan admitting inferiority in each state, then if Gohan's SSJ2 form were to catch up to or surpass Goku's SSJ2 form, would he think his position were any different despite the fact that Goku still has SSJ3 in his arsenal? On top of that, when Gohan expresses his desire to catch up to Goku, he'd felt Goku's SSJ3 chi, yet he wasn't aware of the fact that it was another form since Goku had yet to tell him and Gohan hadn't seen Goku fight Boo. So even if your point was somehow valid, it wouldn't matter because Gohan would be unaware of the fact that Goku was literally a form ahead at this time. Lastly, though the handling of the sword arguably isn't the best way to compare two powers, it's as good as a comparison you can get when: a) There's literally nothing else other than Gohan's desire to catch up with Goku, and there's a wrench thrown into that when considering that Gohan had just sensed SSJ3, leaving the power standing of SSJ2 Gohan/Goku/SSJ3 Goku vague...unless you take the Z Sword implications at face value. b) Weight/muscle training has been shown to have an effect on chi level in the past (gravity training, and Goku's weight training prior to the 25th Budokai in which an increase of chi [Super Saiyan] allows him to lift heavy weights more easily), so there is some kind of relation between the two. The argument was that this kind of training (very large gains in one day) should have been implemented by the others at some point had it truly given Gohan such a large boost.
^ Hence why I brought up an example in which two characters undergo the same training, yet one reaps by far the greater benefits. The main idea was that the fact that the training was very short isn't reason enough to wave away the possibility of a large power increase. I'm not saying a power near Fat Boo needs to be the case, but I don't see why any sort of substantial boost at all isn't a possibility here. While you're correct in saying that arm strength was what benefited the most, it doesn't mean that Gohan couldn't have benefited in other areas. Buuberries covered the muscle argument well enough already, and we get at least one hint from Kaioshin that a notable increase occurred in more than just arm strength. Like I said already, perhaps a power near that of Boo's isn't a necessity, but a lack of any substantial increase at all? That specifically is noted and never contradicted. Goku merely took the easier route in gauging their power. The line from Vegeta in which he claims that, Super Saiyan or not, he has the advantage at the Budokai can be taken as an implication that Super Saiyan transformations at least provide similar boosts for everyone, if not the exact same. ^I'll emphasize this once more. All the scene contradicts is the notion that Gohan has gained the greatest power in the world. The idea that Gohan had grown substantially power-wise in general isn't contested once. |
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| + Ryebrid | May 18 2013, 08:44 AM Post #52 | |
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I have to disagree, respectfully. When someone is wide eyed like that, they are in disbelief to some extent. Spoiler: click to toggle Spoiler: click to toggle It's very common when someone is surprised or shocked as well. In the next panel Kibito and Shin exhibit what im talking about, but more importantly, Goku has reason to be in disbelief.
You're selectively choosing half of Shin's statement to benefit your own point. I'm not going to ignore the other half because you deem that the context shouldn't allow it. Goku is talking in reference to everything Shin has just stated. The matter of the Z-sword and Gohan's power.
It wasn't as much of a testament to his gains as it was acknowledgement on his part, “I-I get it…." Kibito and Shin didn't think it possible at first to go beyond Super Saiyan.
It isn't supported either. If even Goku is a skeptic, and his statements more often than not are considered bible, there's nothing solid at all here. The scene contradicts that the Z- sword grants substantial power to the user as the legend foretold. As the legend is Old Kai himself. Therefore no substantial gain is required to be given to Gohan, especially considering the power up that directly follows. Edited by Ryebrid, May 18 2013, 09:25 AM.
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| * Yu Narukami | May 18 2013, 08:52 AM Post #53 | |
Izanagi!
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Why would Goku question Gohan's chances if he wasn't anywhere near Fat Boo? This was the guy who told Piccolo to his face that he wasn't strong enough, he's serious about stuff like that. He's not depending on rage boosts, he's not depending on a new transformation, he's judging Gohan's chances purely on his current power. If Gohan was near his kid self in terms of power, you'd have to argue that Goku was a complete and utter idiot with no knowledge of power at all. | |
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| + Kyouks | May 18 2013, 09:52 AM Post #54 | |
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You should also look at the manner in which he's speaking and his body language doesn't seem to exhibit disbelief. Those other pics look more like shock to me, the Goku one you posted looking like confusion. But in any case, it's subjective so I won't dwell on that. Goku explicitly wonders if Gohan can beat Boo. That doesn't refer to the size of Gohan's gains, that refers to his chances against Boo. "You've gotten so strong!" "But can he beat that guy?" It isn't contradictory to large gains being made - it's a question as to whether or not those gains are enough. He says "I-I get it" because he initially thought that Gohan was going to literally use the sword to beat Boo. Then when Gohan mentions an increase in arm strength, his mind shifts to Gohan's power gains instead, and then he goes on to say that Gohan's gotten "that much" stronger in base. I wasn't referring to Goku's skepticism there, I was referring to the general idea that the training made Gohan a lot stronger. The former probably isn't solid to use in this context, yes, but I'm confident that the latter is. The legend refers to obtaining the greatest power in the world. Whatever contradiction is brought upon by the appearance of Old Kai would naturally be regarding that, since that's the main point of the sword (no pun intended...maybe). They assume that the key to beating Boo/being the strongest in the world had to do with the sword, but it didn't. That doesn't mean large gains couldn't have been made at the same time. |
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| DEY DID DIS 2 ME | May 18 2013, 03:32 PM Post #55 | |
MY FACE!
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I'll only add that, during the battle with Boo (Pure), Vegeta considered Son superior because of his ability to fight Boo; the former asserts this despite he and Son being equals in each form; the prior notation is supported by Bobbitti when he distinguishes between control of Vegeta and releasing his latent power.  Kooks!
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| DEY DID DIS 2 ME | May 18 2013, 03:43 PM Post #56 | |
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MY FACE!
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I'll also add that Son Goku showed Son Gohan Super Saiyan 3 during Gohan's break. @This topic in general The gap between Son Gohan and Son Goku before Boo's hatching was large enough anyways, although, one should also consider that Son Gohan was rusty and that he has shown much greater power than that of Budokai 25 and at Fat Boo. A likely Zenkai + a substantial increase in power, could place Son Gohan anywhere from just under Son Goku to well above him. |
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| Super Gohan | May 18 2013, 10:23 PM Post #57 | |
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Gohan is well aware of his current standing. Through training he didn’t resolve to surpass Goku but aimed to just draw closer to him from what he could manage: Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P12.3-5 Context: as Gohan trains with the Z Sword Kaioshin: “…This is absolutely unbelievable…To think that he’d become able to swing the Z Sword around so much in such a short period of time.” Gohan: “…Father gave it his all and continued training even after going to the afterlife…I’ve got to draw closer to him, even just a li-little bit…Because Ma-Majin Boo is still alive…!” That’s a more realistic expectation given he was nowhere near his Cell Games strength according to Vegeta, and Goku’s SSJ2 stage is even greater than that. Based on his statement, the fact that his training was cut short to a day, the lack of a substantial power increase being noted during the session, and the true secret behind the Z Sword’s power-boosting properties laid bare; all act to oppose the idea that there would be any significant increase in strength. That Gohan could control the sword in one day would imply an attribution to practice, not necessarily pure strength; as rate of growth of that magnitude has never been demonstrated to be possible through sheer training, even in past events that held greater bearing to the plot. Gohan regaining his Cell Games power would already be considered a miraculous boost for a day’s work. The gigantic proportions of strength people argue that he gained are already comparable to that hyped by the legend, in which I’d have to reiterate - You’ve missed the point completely. What we’re left with is there being no equivalent circumstances that would justify Gohan’s power raising that considerably; training with the Z sword in itself not being deemed a believable means of obtaining substantial power from the beginning and throughout; and your argument resting on a statement by a character with a historically bad record at judging power in reference to Gohan mentioning how the sword gave his arms a workout. When looking beyond that one page it has no real support, exists for a brief moment and wouldn’t casually be treated as anything more than a build up for the Elder Kaioshin. |
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May 18 2013, 11:23 PM Post #58 | |
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I think the Zeta Sword training unleaded all of Gohan's current potential. Zeta Sword Gohan = If Gohan trained as hard as Vegeta/ Goku over the 7 years |
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| + Ryebrid | May 19 2013, 03:24 AM Post #59 | |
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Fair enough.
"I get it! You've gotten stronger at this level, you'll be greater at others, that must be the legend!" "But .... is he that great?.... I wonder...." Note the hesitation in his words. Your assuming his train of thought is fluid, when quite frankly, it's not. "But..... is he that great?.... i wonder..." as opposed "But is he that great? I wonder." It's subjective as to what he's actually wondering about.
A substantial increase in power would have been recognised beforehand, despite having faith in the Legend of the sword itself. Yet the praise is centred solely around proficiency instead.
The legend that states the user obtains the greatest power in the world is unfulfilled the moment the sword breaks. Their frantic explanation to fulfill the integrity of the sword is quickly contradicted. Your reiterating the fact that there's no reason why large gains couldn't have been made, but again, there's nothing to support it either. Following the plot's perspective, it was only the filling in between which lead to a much greater purpose. Edited by Ryebrid, May 19 2013, 03:25 AM.
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